ASD

[delta_mike]

This interview with Ari Ne'eman was good reading on the subject of providing support for people with Autism-spectrum conditions. For a chap of 22 years, he's surprisingly articulate, and rather good at explaining things in ways that my brain can synthesize rapidly.

In particular, I read the line, There are a lot of social rules that we don’t understand, and tremendous consequences inflicted on us for violating them, and nodded knowingly.

The reference to Temple Grandin was also great -- I'd stumbled across her book, Animals in Translation, a few years ago, and devoured it. It was fascinating, and helped me understand myself.

This is because I have traits in common with some people on the Autism spectrum: I think visually; I'm sensitive to bright lights, and sound, and -- as anyone who's ever tickled me -- probably touch, too. I have a highly systemizing mind. I was generally poor at handling social interaction -- I understood computers better than people. Bullying in school was a problem.

Somehow, somewhere along the way -- perhaps through brute force trial and error -- I've developed a better model of people, meaning that I'm now typically as good as most neurotypical people at understanding and inferring other people's mental state. I have social skills!

But they took a long time to develop -- towards the end of undergraduate degree and beyond -- meaning that I now feel that I missed out on a huge range of social opportunities I didn't understand.

I've never been diagnosed with an Autism-spectrum disorder, and thinking about the concept now, I'd be worried about acquiring that particular label. I wouldn't even call it a disorder; merely a specialization.

But it's only just occurred to me after all the discussions here that I can reasonably describe myself as 'not neurotypical', too.

Comments

[rjw76]

Um. Yes. I could basically have written that post myself.

The interesting thing to me is that every time I see an "Autistic people do weird things" post/news article/whatever, the things *aren't weird* to me. Almost like I can... ummm.. translate?

Am I making any sense?

[delta_mike]

Yes.

We both have mental models of both neurotypical and autistic-spectrum persons, and this is unusual.

There's a chap I know, a former PsiPhi member now off working in the wider world, who had a reputation for being intensely arrogant and very difficult to get on with.

So, I got on with him really well. In fact, I think I'd only been speaking with him on [subject-du-jour] for about 90 seconds, whereupon he asked me whether I was gainfully employed and wouldn't mind working in the same place he was..

In this conversation, other neurotypical (but geeky!) people were getting riled that they were being told to change their ways, because their modus operandi was inferior, and that -- for their own good -- they should clearly use Browser X instead (or whatever the topic was), they got miffed and were not in any way appreciative of the advice.

Because I could see, not explicitly stated, that this was the chap's expert, considered, researched position, and that he was trying to help them benefit from his depth of understanding and reasoning on the subject.

More than that, I could engage with him meaningfully on the subject, and ask him sensible questions in a manner that he understood, appreciated, and -- in the face of a reasonable argument or statement of fact -- was entirely happy to update his opinion based on that information.

In that particular case, I tried to translate the assumptions made by either side so they could understand each other. Can't remember how effective I was; it wasn't a significant deal.

---

That's just an example. But there is a slightly perverse mirror-image effect going on -- while autistic persons often have extreme difficulty getting the hang of recognising and understanding the signals and mental states of neurotypical persons, so do neurotypical persons find it difficult to understand the social conventions of people on the autistic spectrum. This is because, quite simply, they think differently. A mental model that works for one will only (at best) crudely approximate the other.

And where there are two substantially different modes of thought, surely there are more..

[spiker-uk.livejournal.com]

*nods* I recognize myself as being somewhere on that spectrum -- towards the "highly socially functioning", but still, distinctly on it.

In fact, I think a lot of geeks of our generation do -- mainly because understanding of the "highly-functioning" end of that spectrum is very new (as in, last ten years and, in general, too late for us).

[kozue.livejournal.com]

I didn't know you were undiagnosed :S

It's without doubt horribly insensitive of me to say such things, but someone once had a huge rant at me for being mad about something you did once on the grounds that you were diagnosed whereas I was just an aimless freak (my embittered and utterly biased interpretation of their meaning, not an accurate reproduction of the actual words they used). I wish I'd known then; being more than a little odd by popular standards myself, I found it a tad squicky to be expected to treat someone differently in the first place on the basis of a piece of paper signed by a doctor, but at the time I had no counter to the sudden assault rehearsed. My approach has always been to treat everyone in the same harsh way unless they tell me in advance that they don't like that. I'm trying to be more like that as I get older.

It seems that there is a scale of social dexterity, mostly split halfway as introversion and extraversion (Those aren't actually the correct words at all in anything more than a superficial sense, but I don't know what the correct words would be. Neurotypical/not doesn't feel solid enough, especially if the idea of what is typical may change as studies delve deeper.). It is definitely desirable to be on the 'extraverted' side of the line in our everyday western society. Exhibiting traits which mark you as an 'introvert' will often lead to a person being branded as mentally ill - or at best unpleasant to be around - very quickly.

For the purpose of my mental image, higher-functioning autism and AS are likely on the extreme end of the 'introversion' scale along with those of us with other social ailments, though I'm not sure what an extreme 'extravert' would be. Other than profoundly annoying, in my case; much as I suspect that a person like me is to socially buoyant human beings.

I rambled, whoops. Maybe it was an excuse to air my outdated moan about being yelled at, or maybe it was just because I find the subject you brought up interesting. Sorry!

[delta_mike]

Well, I've never been diagnosed with any specific mental condition; whether or not I would be if I went to talk to a doctor on the subject is another matter entirely. (Though given that I've learned to cope in various ways, I suspect that attempting some sort of diagnosis now would be rather more difficult.)

Insensitivity is something I generally accept and happily ignore if I can see that there's no malice or hostility behind it; I certainly don't recall you ever being anything other than lovely and friendly. Feel free to speak plainly to me whenever you feel the need. :-)

(Indeed, when I was less socially skilled than I am now, direct, clear explanations of why and how I've made a faux pas were welcome -- they gave me clear, unambiguous feedback of how and where I've made an error, and told me how I could do better next time.)

But I didn't know that someone had been cross at you because of your actions towards me. I don't like the thought of that, though I could understand it and -- and even sympathise with it a little -- if it was a mutual friend acting out of concern for my well-being.

One of the things that surprised me when I was growing up was that I was simultaneously very introverted and a highly-social person. That is, while I found it draining to go out and adventurously talk to people I didn't know -- projecting, as best I could, a socially-adept high-functioning persona for this time -- I likewise very much depended on the company of others for my continued well-being.

The key trick (which I've repeated more than a few times, now) was to find some really good people to be really close friends with -- so that I could spend time with them without having to maintain that difficult-to-sustain extroverted persona. (I only have so many pretend-to-be-an-extrovert points, and depending on the circumstances, they can be consumed extremely quickly.)

Fortunately, while I was often inelegant when interacting with people, it was generally clear to most that, even though I wasn't particularly empathic -- that is, I was poor at perceiving or understanding the mental state of others -- I was incredibly sympathetic -- I seem to be highly sensitive to the pain or discomfort (or joy!) of others. Much like my sensitivity to light or sound, I suppose.

(Or, with fewer words: while I was rather oblivious most of the time, I was lovely, so tended to do okay.)

As for whether it's reasonable to be expected to treat someone who's not neurotypical differently.. I'm not sure. Having been made aware of another person's cognitive biases, it is often helpful -- nay, even productive! -- to take reasonable steps to account for them.

But then, I'm quite a sympathetic person and, generalising, sympathetic people made aware of another people's cognitive biases often update their behaviour automatically as a matter of course; to willfully do otherwise would be contrary to their nature. I can certainly accept that other people may well feel differently.

---

As a complete aside, it's delightful to hear from you! When I've got my thesis submitted and out of the way, and I have some free time again (eek, 9 days to go..) we should see if there's scope for catching up sometime?

[kozue.livejournal.com]

I don't really have much faith in doctors; my mother is one, so I'm acutely aware of how little they know about anything. Especially things which cannot be seen or prodded. Ultimately what 'they' say is AS today might be seen as quaintly extreme eccentricity tomorrow or an evil invisible mind-eating cancer which people should zap on sight next week, so I prefer to judge people by their own merits and my own rules.

I suppose it annoyed/jarred/shocked me that this person (embarrassingly, I don't actually remember who it was, although I barely know anyone so have a fairly good idea) expected me to react differently to someone due to a fairly arbitrary label. I am certain that their intentions were good, and I am the kind of person who is often cast as the Evil Villain type because of the way I communicate, so they were trying to protect you based on their superficial estimation of how I Should Be Spoken To. As it happened, we had started off on a very bad foot, but once you talked to me in a normal way [online] I was able to judge the real you and found you were a decent chap after all. I find it's so much simpler just communicating directly instead of relying on labels, recommendations and sympathy as social glue :)

It's weird, because in my mental model I have married introversion to unsociable personality types, but I have met a few introverts now (including you, of course) who crave and thrive upon social interaction in spite of their natural 'build'. It must be cruel to want it and not be able to enjoy it without putting in so much extra work. In my case, I am very much happiest with my own company, so I've been trying to understand this other flavour of introvert for a long time with some difficulty. When I speak with one of my friends who is similarly caught between wanting friends and suffering being around "noisy" social situations, I find it hard to understand why he compromises so much of himself to be part of this unfairly skewed world because my own agenda is so different. It is good reinforcement to see more introverted socialisers around. Maybe I'll come to understand the perspective one day if I hear enough about how it all fits together from various people!

It's tricky for me to accept without understanding, and I'm not sensitive enough to understand unless people show their true selves, so I end up just ignoring most of humanity where possible to avoid getting caught up on masks and expectations and rituals and other nonsense. But when someone talks to me frankly and there's no mess, it's most refreshing. Have to keep that kind of person around.

Good luck with your thesis, anyway! I imagine that it will feel so good when you have it behind you (says someone who has never done anything like that in her life). Catching up sounds interesting, though I'm rather averse to real world things. Coaxing me through my more sensible other half is usually the only way to make me leave the hermit cave.

[delta_mike]

I find it hard to think of Autism as a brain-eating cancer. Rather, I see AS conditions as simply a set of.. unusual specializations, where different parts of a person's mind develop with more or less emphasis on different layers.

There isn't an 'autistic' part of me -- instead, I think of having relatively under-developed bits of the brain that deals with social awareness, abstraction of sensory inputs and introspection, while the bits that deal with spacial visualization, rational thought and sensory processing being comparatively super-developed.

(In particular, this combination results in at least one of my super-powers: the ability to sustain, under the right conditions, epic levels of concentration.)

---

In my head, I think of 'introversion/extroversion' as a measure of how cognitively expensive it is to project a mask/persona/fascade when interacting with other people.

(Note that when you're talking to someone you know, trust and respect, maintaining that superficial fascade is usually unnecessary -- it's generally safe to share all your thoughts, as they really are, without having to filter them to avoid sharing personal things, or unnecessarily burdening the listener.)

If you find it a lot of effort and generally difficult, you're on the 'introverted' end of the scale, where it's difficult to engage in social interactions with unfamiliar or untrusted people.

On the other hand, if you find it relatively easy, then you're towards the 'extroverted' end of the scale. Mixing with other people at a relatively superficial level is therefore something you're likely to engage in more frequently -- or, at least, cope with better.

People with AS conditions can fall in both categories; could be relatively shy and private, or can be completely outgoing and unrestrained (though not, necessarily, tactful.)

And, on a different axis again is how much social interaction matters to a person. Most people I know value interpersonal interaction to some degree, but for some it's far more important than it is for others.

Finally, there's the notion of depth-of-understanding when it comes to how people think. I certainly know that, when I was a student, my understanding of others was inferior to most my age -- and so I did tend to blunder about somewhat, though usually in a manner people took to be well-meaning, even if I was exasperating. Today, I do better, though I can still find noisy social situations highly draining if I fail to quickly find someone I can relate to easily among the crowd.

So, you've got lots of different axes. Some combinations are more likely than others -- an extroverted, Aspergic, socially-uninterested but highly socially-competent combination seems improbable, for example. (Did I just describe Dr. House?)

---

My natural build isn't actually too bad. Though it has been at times most extraordinarily difficult and challenging, I've been fortunate and found some really, really good people with whom I can just interact with directly; no fascades or filters required, so it has become easy to talk to them, and sate the desire for, well, companionship and conversation.

Which is good, because, certainly at the moment, cognitive resources are in short supply, what with my impending thesis deadlines, battles against the writers-block and confidence monsters, and general weariness. I'm looking forward to a fortnight from now, when I'll be in the middle of the week I'm taking off after I've submitted the thesis. :-)

I'll poke Max and solicit suggestions for a minor catching up thing. I'm loathe to pull you out of your comfort zone unwillingly, but likewise don't want to invade your sanctum without invitation. Hopefully there's a half-way house that'll satisfy. :)

[kurenai-tenka.livejournal.com]

Somehow, somewhere along the way -- perhaps through brute force trial and error -- I've developed a better model of people, meaning that I'm now typically as good as most neurotypical people at understanding and inferring other people's mental state. I have social skills!

Though with ASD, it will always be only an intellectual understanding, not the same ingrained, instinctual one.


I've never been diagnosed with an Autism-spectrum disorder, and thinking about the concept now, I'd be worried about acquiring that particular label. I wouldn't even call it a disorder; merely a specialization.

It's both costy and... distressing to be diagnosed as an adult. If you have the skills to function normally now, then does it even matter? Odds are, it really is just something you have in common with people on the spectrum, rather than that you actually have it.


Aaand late reply is late. I had this bookmarked to reply to, I was just being slow. :P

[delta_mike]

That's okay, I've been slow replying to this one, too. :-)

I think you're right that they are merely traits I have in common. In various ways I have aged slowly -- mostly mentally, though given people tend to underestimate my age, possibly physically, too.

In particular, I believe the mental faculties that deal with social interaction have developed much later in me than might be typical -- resulting in AS-typical behaviours.

However, as various LARPers and others can attest, they're now present. And it does now feel somewhat instinctual; it doesn't require a lot of effort to try to piece together how someone's feeling. But I don't know if this is atypical for those with AS qualities; it's quite possible that it might just be practice.

[kurenai-tenka.livejournal.com]

I think you're right that they are merely traits I have in common. In various ways I have aged slowly -- mostly mentally, though given people tend to underestimate my age, possibly physically, too.

Heh, well that could be good old 'guy' syndrome. :)


Seriously though... if they weren't so present before and are now, it could have something to do with your younger years. Obviously without knowing anything about your childhood/teenage years I can't really comment further, but it could be as simple as an 'environmental' issue. It's all speculation though, surely alls that matters is that you function normally now? :)